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Poster: user unknown Date: Jan 10, 2010 9:40pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Best post-Jerry lineup???

I totally agree about Warren. I felt he made The Dead sound quite Allmanesque, though I saw the tour opener and he settled in better as the tour progressed. Of course, I like Warren better solo acoustic than I do with The Dead, The Allmans or Gov't. Mule.

And no, there will never be anyone who can "lead the band like Jerry did". Of course that is just my opinion and I could be wrong.

This post was modified by user unknown on 2010-01-11 05:40:11

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Poster: RBNW....new and improved! Date: Jan 11, 2010 4:01am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Best post-Jerry lineup???

"And no, there will never be anyone who can "lead the band like Jerry did". Of course that is just my opinion and I could be wrong.".....if yuour wrong, then im wrong along with you!

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Jan 11, 2010 7:23am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Best post-Jerry lineup???

I get really cheesed off with this idea that Garcia was the 'leader of the band'. He categorically did not 'lead' the Grateful Dead - the band was dependent on each one of its four key members to make it work. Ask yourself this, if Phil had died and Jerry, Bob and Bill had carried on would it have still been the Grateful Dead? Of course it wouldn't.

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Poster: cush212 Date: Jan 11, 2010 7:50am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Best post-Jerry lineup???

And yet you forget a very important factor, my friend... What would it have been like if I had not been there...

Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk...

Any plans for dinner yet? I've been forced to become a vegetarian (actually feels pretty good) and give up my cheap vodka since I got here, alcohol in general, only get to drink beer now...

Hope all is well acrost the pond... A Happy, Healthy and Wholesome New Year to you Rob and family!

OK, we'll lose the wholesome part...

:)

I do still get to smoke... Got's to be organic rollies though...

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Jan 11, 2010 8:02am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Best post-Jerry lineup???

The very best to you too, Jon. Glad to hear that you're settling in there, though that does sound like a pretty tough regime you've got yourself tied in to. For reasons we won't go into here I went through a non-drinking vegetarian phase myself a few years ago. I'm pleased to say I've since returned to form as a booze-guzzling, carnivorous reprobate. Remember, vegetarians don't live longer - it just seems that way.

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Poster: cush212 Date: Jan 11, 2010 8:17am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Best post-Jerry lineup???

I need a little break. Spent my first day (Christmas Eve) here in the ER with acute alcohol poisoning... Does Cognac count?

PS. I did sneak a steak in last week...

Just wish I knew my way around here, San Diego proper I kind of know, LA and Orange county I know, but this La Jolla is very odd. Been here 2 1/2 weeks and have not seen a policeman and the only people I've heard speaking Spanish looked like they were from Spain... Very, very weird!!!

This post was modified by cush212 on 2010-01-11 16:17:16

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Jan 11, 2010 8:23am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Best post-Jerry lineup???

Is it cheap Cognac?

Joking aside, alcohol poisoning does not sound like a recommended lifestyle choice. I'm all for indulging in a little chemical escapology now and then but you have to look after yourself too. I think you'd be missed if you weren't around.

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Poster: cush212 Date: Jan 11, 2010 8:38am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Best post-Jerry lineup???

I've pretty much quit drinking... Just beer now, and we all know that's just liquid food...

;)

Is it time for breakfast yet?

:)

This post was modified by cush212 on 2010-01-11 16:38:58

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Jan 11, 2010 9:07am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Best post-Jerry lineup???

I'm two beers away from a beautiful day
After a night on the town
Just two beers away from a beautiful day
If I can just keep 'em down.

I woke up this mornin' with moss on my tongue
My head soundin' just like a cave
Tryin' to remember the things that I done
I wish I would learn to behave.

I jumped like a rabbit when I heard that alarm
Time to get back in the race
Two cans of breakfast won't do me no harm
I'll shave when I find my face.

I'm two beers away from a beautiful day
After a night on the town
Just two beers away from a beautiful day
If I can just keep 'em down.

The newsman is sayin' conditions are poor
The weatherman says it might rain
Well, I know the causes and I know the cure
For all this self-inflicted pain.

I'm two beers away from a beautiful day
After a night on the town
Just two beers away from a beautiful day
If I can just keep 'em down.

If you're healthy and happy take my advice
What's good for me ain't for you
Stay with your diet of water and ice
Right now we've got something to do.

I'm two beers away from a beautiful day
After a night on the town
Just two beers away from a beautiful day
If I can just keep 'em down.

I'm two beers away from a beautiful day
After a night on the town
Just two beers away from a beautiful day
If I can just keep 'em down...

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Poster: cush212 Date: Jan 11, 2010 9:16am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Best post-Jerry lineup???

Never heard that before... Thank you BD.

I've got a family here in San Diego watching my back! Families are a good thing to have, don't even have to be related. I thought I had one in AZ, but apparentley they don't give damn. Soon as I lost my job, they was gone!

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Poster: cush212 Date: Jan 11, 2010 8:41am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Best post-Jerry lineup???

Thank you Rob! Me feeling much better now...

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Poster: cush212 Date: Jan 11, 2010 8:55am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Best post-Jerry lineup???

Say's Konyack on the label... That's got to cost extra...

;)

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Poster: groovernut Date: Jan 11, 2010 9:49am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Best post-Jerry lineup???

Well no offense please but Garcia did lead the music in a very special way. The more I listen the more I hear. I know he did not always want this, but he did it... He would have let others step up if they wanted or could have.

While Further is nice, for me it lacks the originality and drive of the prime time dead. IMO if they would have to find some fresh raw talent, forget there legacy and start over with all band mates equal (nobody "replacing" Jerry). I saw "The Dead" (w. Warren) but it was lacking and I felt like Warren was constrained. IMO if they have talent like Warren they should let him drive.... let it happen.


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Poster: cush212 Date: Jan 11, 2010 10:21am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Best post-Jerry lineup???

I liked Jimmy Herring much better. Never been much of a Warren fan, but it seemed liked when I heard him with them, he was trying too hard to run the show...

My humble opinion...

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Jan 11, 2010 10:06am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Best post-Jerry lineup???

No offense taken at all, and none intended by what I'm about to say! Garcia was the Grateful Dead's lead guitar player, so naturally what he's doing is upfront and obvious, but if you really listen what you hear is a tapestry of sound being woven by all of the musicians, not just Garcia. Each one of the core four is absolutely vital to the performance. If you want to hear Garcia leading listen to the Jerry Garcia Band, he absolutely did not lead the Grateful Dead.

"The way it works is it doesn't depend on a leader, and I'm not the leader of the Grateful Dead or anything like that; there isn't any fuckin' leader." Jerry Garcia, 1972.

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Poster: SomeDarkHollow Date: Jan 11, 2010 7:41am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Best post-Jerry lineup???

For the most part I agree, but what about the Dead sans Mickey? Some of my favorite stuff they produced was during his "hiatus". But having to go forward with only one drummer is much easier than having to integrate a new player on a single instrument (like Phil in your example). As in there is more than one person here who feels that the Dead basically ceased to be when Brent came on board.

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Jan 11, 2010 7:48am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Best post-Jerry lineup???

I deliberately didn't include Mickey, not because I haven't appreciated his contributions on many an occasion, but because to my mind the core members of the Grateful Dead were indisputably Garcia, Lesh, Weir and Kreutzmann and every one of that quartet contributed to making the sound what it was. It can still be (and was) the Grateful Dead without Mickey or Pigpen or Keith or Brent, but not without any of the central four. Why was it Mickey and the Hartbeats when Bob wasn't there?

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Poster: elbow1126 Date: Jan 11, 2010 11:59am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Best post-Jerry lineup???

It wasn't only that Bob was missing at those Hartbeats shows. Was Pigpen there? Also there were other players. If you look at 10-12-68 and 10-13-68 there was no Pigpen and they were still The Grateful Dead. Hard to suggest that Pig in '68 was not an important part of the band. So I don't think the Hartbeats shows were not Dead shows just because Bob wasn't there. It is true though that when they did the '78 and '94 acoustic shows without the full band they did not play as The Grateful Dead. My point? I don't think I have one but I needed a diversion.

While I agree that Garcia may not have been the leader, I do think he would have been the hardest to replace, assuming they would have wanted to replace Billy, Phil or Bob.

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Jan 11, 2010 12:30pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Best post-Jerry lineup???

Hi Larry - I can sympathise entirely with your need for diversion. I've spent half the day trying to rewrite three paragraphs and I just totally failed to get into them at all. It seems easier to inflict my half-baked notions on unsuspecting GD forumites.

Pigpen was a good guy and a big part of the Dead - but you can't rank his contribution as highly as those of the main four. Honestly, would a classic St Stephen-Eleven-Dark Star be seriously impaired without Pigpen's contribution?

I'll agree that Garcia is/was irreplaceable - but so are the others.

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Poster: ghostofpig Date: Jan 11, 2010 2:30pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Best post-Jerry lineup???

Dark Star--St. Stephen-the Eleven--and was was the next song? They wouldn't have belched fire without Pig.

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Poster: elbow1126 Date: Jan 11, 2010 2:43pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Best post-Jerry lineup???

I kind of liked the Death Don't Have No Mercy they did at that those sans Pig shows in Oct '68.

However I think the band would have been very different and not necessarily for the better without Pig at that time. I do think by the time Pig had left they had moved far enough from the blues that Pig was no longer as good a fit as Keith.

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Jan 11, 2010 2:52pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Best post-Jerry lineup???

They would. They did. And though I liked it well enough in my long gone youth these days I'm happy to give the cheesy excesses of a 30-minute handsouttayopocketboxbacks rant a miss, thank you very much.

Pig was doubtless a fine fellow, but he was a sideshow to the main event.

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Jan 11, 2010 3:19pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Best post-Jerry lineup???

"he was a sideshow to the main event"

Well, I doubt anyone ever got laid because Jerry played a ripping lead, but I'm sure Pig got more than one or two guys playing pocket pool hooked up. I'll take that over the "main event".

Yes, I really am that shallow.

This post was modified by bluedevil on 2010-01-11 23:19:48

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Jan 11, 2010 3:27pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Best post-Jerry lineup???

"I'm sure Pig got more than one or two guys playing pocket pool hooked up"


With each other?

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Jan 11, 2010 3:38pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Best post-Jerry lineup???

What do you want? SF is SF.

Lets put it another way, Bobby W speak/singing Lovelight did not aid my romantic endeavors...

1 in 10,000

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Jan 11, 2010 3:45pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Best post-Jerry lineup???

So that quasar Moses came ridin' up on... that's like a euphemism is it?

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Poster: William Tell Date: Jan 11, 2010 5:21pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Best post-Jerry lineup???

I thought the 10,000 came for the show?





This changes EVERYTHING!

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Poster: high flow Date: Jan 12, 2010 4:14pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Best post-Jerry lineup???

Moses come ridin' up on a "quasar"
his "spurs" were jinglin' his fly was ajar.

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Poster: cush212 Date: Jan 12, 2010 4:20pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Best post-Jerry lineup???

OK, this thread is just way out of line... Better get Brother Wolf and SDH involvos, I mean involved...

:)

I ride busses, but prefer Audis...

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Jan 12, 2010 4:09pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Best post-Jerry lineup???

" Lets put it another way, Bobby W speak/singing Lovelight did not aid my romantic endeavors..."

That was probably part of his master plan, more for himself. Funny for all the queer references put on Mr. Weir due to his short shorts and pink shirts and guitars, bet he got more than anyone

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Poster: ghostofpig Date: Jan 12, 2010 7:53am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Best post-Jerry lineup???

While the handsouttayopocket routine might seem a bit redundant and dated, we're talking at the time. Folks wanted to rave as wwll as space. Remember--they were the acid test dance band. The morphology required Pig. He gve them certain things that were much deeper and powerful than pocket billiards. He gave them bluster and bravado. He gave them fire.

Lord knows that he would have been out of place in 1973. That was a different band by then. But Keith would have made no sense in 1968.

They were one of the bands who made good choices about changing bandmates, especially in 1967, 1968, 1971 and 1879. It kept a good thing going.

The Rolling Stones also chose well in 1969 and 1976. The Allmans chose well a few times. Others failed.

BTW, Pig usually handled keys on Death Don't Have No Mercy.


And Rob, whose pockets are yo' hands in now? Give it back!

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Jan 12, 2010 8:53am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Best post-Jerry lineup???

Am I coming across as overly disrespectful to/dismissive of the memory of Pigpen? If I am - I'll apologise for it right now. There're a lot of tight Pigpen grooves - Hard to Handle, Next Time You See Me, The Stranger, Mr Charlie - that I still listen to regularly and with pleasure. But the lengthy Lovelight workouts just haven't dated well, as I think you accept yourself. My 17-year-old self likely played that side of Live/Dead more than the others, but that guy hasn't lived here in quite some time.

Would Pigpen have been out of place in 73 not just because the band had changed but because he couldn't (or wouldn't) change with it?

So, what's up, doc?

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Poster: William Tell Date: Jan 12, 2010 9:43am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Best post-Jerry lineup???

This has always been an issue for me (if DHealy thought I was a misogynist, he must have really had an...ok, ok, I'll drop it for your sake! I really am over it...right?...right!), and I almost always skip PP tunes of the rap nature...

GoP: I would offer that TC was a reasonable stand in for Keith in the pure sense of "non Pig", so I am not sure he wouldn't have been okay in 68 in the same way...these kinds of comparisons are always awkward though.

The one thing I always harp on is that with the popularity of 10-12-68 and 10-13, hard as it is, one has to accept that they were a damn fine band without Pig in 68...if TC played on those Oct shows, I know I wouldn't have missed anything...

Harsh, but MHO.

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Poster: ghostofpig Date: Jan 12, 2010 5:40pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Best post-Jerry lineup???

W.T. Honestly--if I hadn't seen them in the day--and if I hadn't met Ron--I would probably agree. The upside of having all those Dark Stars can produce a downside of too many Lovelights. There, I said it. But I could WATCH one nightly for a year! And the band often took off in between raps. Don't sell the music short.

I'm not sure I get yer drift on T.C. I thought he added that perfect tinge of psychedellic organ that made Country Joe's band so tasty--only more so, as he was a foil for Garcia, not Melton. I think changing keyboardists changed the music more than any other factor. And I don't see Pig as a meaningful keyboardist post 67 (though he is okay 71-72).

Rob--no offense taken. As said, Pig relied on many catch phrases--pony riding, 4 day creeps, tap her on the shoulder, greasin', and pocket pool. But that was the SHOW--not the deep head tripping music. It made them a carnival--gave them an added dimension that added to the whole. Honestly--ya just had to see this guy--this greasy fat man who looked like he was going to stomp you as he dragged your baby sister off to the bedroom to check out her nitties. He represented the best and worst in us guys at the time. He was the psychedellin Fonzie--the Mr. cool who walked the walk. Authentic. 100% genuine real Pig. No additives--okay--maybe preserved and pickled.

When the band (i.e. not Pig) played, they didn't exactly move much. Not like modern day bands. But Pig moved and shook for all of them. Charisma. Machismo. Shaman. Showman.

We didn't dance to Dark Star (maybe swayed around), but by the time we got to Lovelight or Caution, it was balls out, backwoods church stompin' time.

BTW, Rob:

http://www.taringa.net/posts/musica/846578/The-Clash---260-Bootlegs.html

Again, this doesn't always translate to tape, especially if you didn't see him. But I'm glad you agree that songs such as H to H, The Stranger, etc. are moving.

And you just have to love all those righteous versions of Smokestack Lightning. While his moans didn't always vary, they were true; and the band never played the song the same way twice. Maybe that's why it was played only once or twice a year.

As to lineups, give me the 1969 septet anyday.

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Poster: elbow1126 Date: Jan 11, 2010 12:08pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Best post-Jerry lineup???

The only replacement for Mickey Hart was Mickey Hart. So it was Bill or Mickey plus Bill but not two drummers for the Grateful Dead. Probably means Mickey was a little more important than perhaps he is being given credit for.

I find it odd that Further has two drummers. Clearly someone feels more comfortable playing that way. PAF doesn't and I don't think Ratdog does so why Further?

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Poster: SomeDarkHollow Date: Jan 11, 2010 2:07pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Best post-Jerry lineup???

Two drummers sell more tickets. They have an established image they must live up to at this point. Do they need them musically? Probably not, but think of all those sad fadces in the crowd if the lights came up and there was only one kit on stage. C'mon, you gotta think of the kids.

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Poster: user unknown Date: Jan 11, 2010 9:51am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Best post-Jerry lineup???

Rob I agree that the band would have been forever changed by the passing of any member. And though Jerry disliked being considered the "leader of the band", he was the de facto leader if for no other reason that he was the most "seasoned" musician in the group.

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Jan 11, 2010 10:21am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Best post-Jerry lineup???

Maybe at the outset he was, Bill, but you surely can't disagree that the other guys developed their chops and got pretty well seasoned very quickly. Phil might have learned to play bass on the job but you can't say he struggled to keep up.

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Poster: user unknown Date: Jan 11, 2010 2:48pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Best post-Jerry lineup???

Ya got me there Robert. As Phil's chops developed the interplay between he and Jerry on some of the jams did become crucial. Maybe Phil is still searching for the lead guitarist that he can play off of, and vice versa, that well. The chemistry didn't seem to be there with Warren. As talented as he is, there is something about Jackie Greene that just doesn't, in my opinion, fit right. I haven't heard any of the shows by the current line-up. A lot of Deadhookers are touting the PLQ line-up with Warren and Jimmy Herring..but isn't two lead guitarists just a tad Allmanesque. And what is the deal with opening a show with "Jam"? Shouldn't that come later as a segue between tunes? Oh well, several of the latter day incarnations seem to feel the opening "Jam" is what the audience wants.

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Jan 11, 2010 3:25pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Best post-Jerry lineup???

Bill, I think Jackie Greene (and I've said this elsewhere hereabouts) is one of the finest interpreters of Grateful Dead songs around at the moment. The guy just OWNS New Speedway when he sings it. If you haven't before (and even if you have) take a look at Phil and Jackie playing Brokedown Palace together and tell me what you think. I think its beautiful.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eS4DHKgteJs

And here's Jackie doing New Speedway:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rwSelzaH-8

(check Phil and Jackie teasing Bird Song halfway through)

To answer your other point - I don't honestly believe Phil is in search of some Holy Grail Garcia replacement, I think he's just really being revitalised and having a whole lot of fun playing with different people. Jimmy Herring is another fine Dead interpreter (you've listened to Jazz is dead?) but I think Warren Haynes, much though I like him, finds it hard to leave the Allmans out of the mix.

And that opening jam? Could just be a way of warming everybody up.

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Jan 12, 2010 7:45pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Best post-Jerry lineup??? JG (no, not that one)

http://jackiegreene.com/grateful_ep/index.html

Jackie's free download of his versions of Sugaree, New Speedway and Brokedown

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